In a pivotal moment for Canada's economic sovereignty and security, the threat of U.S. tariffs has sparked renewed discussions about the critical need for expanded pipeline infrastructure to help move our top export, oil and natural gas, to global markets and take control of our economic destiny.
Many of Canada’s premiers and federal leaders are saying the revival of previously cancelled projects like Energy East, Northern Gateway and even Saguenay LNG in Quebec could provide Canada with the trading infrastructure required to diversify our markets and strengthen our economic independence.
Mike Smyth, host of The Mike Smyth Show on 980 CKNW out of Vancouver, joins Canada Action and Jillian Maguire, a teacher and climate campaign activist, in a debate on whether or not now is the time to build more pipelines in Canada.
LISTEN TO THE DISCUSSION ON YOUTUBE
Or, see the full debate transcript below!
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DEBATE TRANSCRIPT:
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Mike: Okay, here we go. Now with our great pipeline debate.
In the face of the Donald Trump tariff threats, should we build more oil pipelines in Canada? We ship millions of barrels of Canadian oil to the USA every single day.
As the Trump trade war looms, should we expand our oil markets, build a new pipeline to eastern Canada? For example, remember the Energy East pipeline? It was cancelled. Maybe we should build it now. How about a new oil pipeline to Northern BC?
Remember the Northern Gateway pipeline? It was cancelled. Maybe we should start that one up again.
There is a renewed effort to build these projects now and get them going quickly in the face of the Trump threats to Canada. Got a great panel standing by to discuss this for you now, both sides of it.
First have a listen to this. This is Justin Trudeau's industry minister, Francois Philippe Champagne. Now even the federal liberals are saying maybe we need to build a pipeline to eastern Canada. Now listen to this. Things have changed.
Francois: I think Quebecers realized that, you know, the, you know, the rules of the game have changed over the last few days.
So you cannot be in the past. You need to look forward in the future and that may need that we need to be able to have transmission lines that could bring electricity east- west. That may mean that you need pipelines that would go east west.
Mike: Wow. Wow. You even got these federal Liberals now saying maybe it's time to build a pipeline through Quebec. When was the last time you heard that?
Let's discuss this now, both sides of it for you. Cody Battershill is the founder of Canada Action. That's a pro oil and gas group. Cody, thanks for coming on.
Cody: Good morning, Mike. And thanks to Jillian for being here as well.
Mike: Thank you, Cody. Also on the line is Jillian Maguire.
Jillian is a Vancouver teacher and a climate change campaigner. Hi, Jillian.
Jillian: Hi, nice to, nice to see you again, Cody.
Mike: Okay, thank you to both of you guys for doing this.
Cody, let me go to you first. There seems there's obviously this renewed effort, a renewed interest to get these pipelines built in Canada and get them built quickly. What do you think of this?
Cody: It's absolutely a must-do right now. We are not controlling our own economic security or our own economic future.
We need to rapidly expand and expedite the approval and construction of ports, pipelines, railways and roads to get our mining, forestry, food and energy to the best, to global markets for the best possible price, to reinforce our social programs and our social funding for healthcare and teachers and emergency services to improve affordability.
And let's look at the facts. We need to support all forms of energy. Canada's a leader in wind. Canada's leader in hydro. We're going to need to expand nuclear power. We're going to need more natural gas. Natural gas demand is growing. Oil demand is growing. If Canada makes it and the world needs it, let's sell it.
Let's support Canadian families, supporting everything.
Enough with this nonsense. Blocking projects. This can't do attitude is not going to help our future. We need to get behind all forms of energy in Canada, all communities and workers supporting these projects to take control of our own destiny. It's critical right now.
Mike: Okay, Jillian Maguire, what do you say to that?
Jillian: Yeah, I think it's really interesting that Champagne said that we need to look forward to the future.
Scientists have said that we need to cut carbon dioxide emissions, like roughly in half by 2030.
That's five years from now. These pipelines won't even be built in five years. And they'll, they'll already be like, completely unnecessary if we want to survive.
We've got atmospheric rivers. We've got like historic fires. LA was on fire. Lahaina burnt down. Jasper burnt down. It's like, you know, Donald Trump comes out and says he's going to have tariffs. And Canada, our, our attitude is, okay, well, we'll drill, baby, drill. Like it's. This is insane.
I'm getting so angry that our response to every kind of disaster, whether it's a natural disaster, whether it's perceived economic disaster, and the tariffs haven't even, you know, been.
Been in... been put in place yet. Our answer in Canada and British Columbia is always like, more pipelines. Like, we're just becoming a pipeline pusher at this point, at this point in time. It's, it's outrageous. I just want to just say that, you know, BC's plans to fast-track 19 natural resource projects.
Yeah. They say that's a $20 billion investment... expected to create 8,000 jobs. Like 8,000 jobs. That's what we're getting for $20 billion. We could pull everybody out of poverty for that. People are dying in the street and we've got… 8,000 jobs.
Like, this is ludicrous.
Mike: Okay, Cody, go ahead.
Cody: Well, that's, first of all, that's private investment. And if those, if one of those 8,000 jobs was yours or your colleagues teaching Jillian, I think you'd have a different perspective on it. We need mining. These projects are for mining. These projects are already well on their way to being completed.
So what we actually need is, we need to see... And I applaud Premier Eby. And look, it doesn't matter who you voted for in the last provincial election. It doesn't matter who you vote for nationally. It's time to pull this country together, regardless of your political stripes, to get behind the Indigenous, non-Indigenous, labour, non- labour, all territories, provinces and communities.
To get behind the women and men, the families who make up and produce the energy that keeps us alive in the winter, the food that feeds our families, the mining that builds our societies, and the forestry products that we all use every day, including teachers. And no amount of doomsday predictions are going to make this 2030 apocalypse happen.
We continue to adapt. The world is asking for Canadian LNG, Canadian oil, Canadian resources. Let's make it happen. Enough with the doomsday nonsense.
Mike: Okay, okay, Jillian, just before you respond to that, let me play another clip here for you, which I think is intriguing. Now, this is Keith Stewart.
Okay, so he is an energy campaigner from Greenpeace. He's been a guest here on the show in the past. And here he is commenting about this push to build pipelines, especially in the, in the face of the Donald Trump tariff threats to build these pipelines, perhaps relax environmental regulation so we can get them built quickly. And he makes an intriguing point here. Let's listen, then we'll get your thoughts.
Keith: There have been a lot of news stories about how Donald Trump's threat to put a 10% tariff on Canadian oil means Canada has to build new pipelines. They are full of breathless quotes from the people who have always said we should build more pipelines, saying now we really have to build them.
And if we have to declare a state of emergency to suspend environmental rules to make this happen, that's just the cost of progress. There is a catch, however. The global market for oil is going to peak and decline long before we can get a new pipeline built. Building another massive oil export pipeline now would be like investing in a Blockbuster Video franchise, just as Netflix is on the rise.
Mike: Okay. So building new pipelines now would be like investing in a Blockbuster Video store, which is obsolete. Jillian, what do you think of that? Do you agree with him?
Jillian: Absolutely. I mean, just listening to that, suspend environmental rules, which is just the cost of doing business.
I mean, that's, that's authoritarianism. And this is what we're seeing and this is what we're trying to fight against. And yet we've got, you know, people suggesting that we should get rid of our democratic rules in order to build more pipelines so that we can be stranded with them later and in a massive amount of poverty.
You know, our, our medical system is collapsing. We don't have money for, you know, we don't have money for school supplies. We don't, we've people literally dying in our streets because they're unhoused. And we want to suspend environmental rules so we can sink even more money into pipelines that nobody ever use.
Mike: Cody, go ahead, Go ahead. And we'll fit a break in here. Go ahead.
Cody: Was that quote from Keith Stewart recent or was that from 5 or 10 or 15 or 20 years ago? Because Keith's been saying the same thing for years and years and years. Greenpeace, even Jillian coming on the show saying the same thing over and over and over again.
It doesn't make it true.
Oil demand since... Let's talk about Keystone XL, 2010. Oil demand was about 92 million barrels a day. And all these groups, Jillian and Keith Stewart and all their friends blocked that pipeline as well as Northern Gateway and they made Trans Mountain cost more.
They blocked all these LNG projects. What's happened since then? Oil demand is now at 104 million barrels a day and it's not slowing down, it is not decreasing and it will not decrease in 2030. Recent forecast actually said it would be the same in 2040 as it is today.
So as Canadians, let's ask ourselves, are we going to continue to let the doom and gloom nonsense, it's not credible. I'm sorry but Keith Stewart's nonsense about oil demand is not credible. And Jillian's talk doomsday apocalypse vision is not credible.
What is actually funding our social programs? It's natural resources. That's a key part of the funding for our social programs in this country. But Jillian wants to cut it.
Mike: Okay, we're talking oil pipelines in Canada. Should we build more of them in the face of the Trump tariff threat?
Cody Battershill, Jillian Maguire, my guest, Will in Langley. Hi Will, go ahead.
Will: Well, if these liberal lulus really believed in the health of the environment, they would push for the most ecologically safe and responsible oil product on the planet.
We're going to use it for the next 200 years. We need to face it. And everywhere else on the planet it's created in the dirtiest way possible. But their ideologues, Mike, they don't care. They have one idea, they stick to it, bar none.
And it's ridiculous. And it's the reason we are in a deficit state as a country and might be getting taken over by the friggin Americans.
Mike: Okay, thank you for the call, Jillian. What do you say to him?
Jillian: Yeah, okay, well, a liberal lulu. Interesting. Look, renewables are faster to build. They bring more security.
They don't destroy our environment. When we look at social collapse, the social collapse that's happening around the globe, it's because of climate change. It's because the climate is collapsing. Now. When you get climate collapse, you get social collapse, you get mass migration. Okay?
And this is what, this is what we're seeing. And, and the response to mass migration that we're seeing is authoritarianism. A lot of these corporations that we're dealing with are a huge part of the funding comes from American corporations. Okay? So we can't, I, we can't separate the Canadian dollars from the American dollars.
As a society, I just want to say as a society we should care about the welfare of our children. Children are dying of leukemia, right? Close to LNG sites. You know, we're looking at a spill, a bitumen spill in the Salish Sea, causing the deaths of a million people.
Mike: Cody, What do you, what do you say to her?
Jillian: Give your head a shake.
Cody: I would, I would just ignore everything Jillian just said pretty much. And a lot, especially the fearmongering. It's unsubstantiated.
For example… look, we need to support all forms of energy.
Canada, like I said, we're ninth in the world for wind, we're a leader in hydro. But we need to control our own economic security. That means trading with the world. And while Jillian and Keith Stewart from Greenpeace have been blocking Canadian LNG, the United States has become the world's number one LNG exporter.
Qatar, Australia have become the world's largest LNG exporters. And oil demand is not decreasing anytime soon. Even when it peaks, it's going to be years and decades at 90 to 110 million barrels a day, depending on which forecast you want to use.
Proudly, I'm here to proudly support all Canadian workers, all Canadian communities. Let's control our own future. Let's secure the future for our children. So they have teachers that are well paid. Jillian, I want teachers to be well paid. I want more doctors and nurses working, more police officers, more social programs to support our community.
And the funding for that stuff comes in large part from a strong economy, which in Canada, our natural economic strength is natural resources. Ok, why are you against that? It's insane.
Mike: Go ahead and respond to that, Jillian. Go ahead.
Jillian: Hey, thanks. Yeah, well, he hasn't cited any, any evidence, any credible evidence.
The BC government has given five and a half billion dollars to these toxic industries. Five and a half billion dollars. Imagine the amount of housing we could build for that. Imagine the number of doctors we could train for that.
We can't keep shoveling public money into these private oil and gas corporations and pipeline corporations. It doesn't make any sense. We're sacrificing our…
Cody: Where did the five and a half go, Jillian?
Jillian: To resource extraction projects.
Cody: But what specifically?
Jillian: Well, a variety, a huge number.
Cody: So you don't know.
Jillian: Like this is what we're doing. Like we're, look at the, the over $1 billion just in the teachers' pensions that's going to fossil, the fossil fuel industry. That's another subsidy that's not even counted as a subsidy. Shoveling it in.
Mike: Squeeze another call in here. Pat in Vancouver. Hi Pat, go ahead. Hi.
Pat: Yeah, I just wanted to kind of also bring this home to like I'm calling from Vancouver, right. And like with the current Trans Mountain pipeline, like we all know that it seems to become kind of economically feasible after 10 billion and now it's ballooned to 35.
Like there is that deficit that's like 20, 25 billion that, you know, if we're going to build more pipeline, that's money going to come from somewhere. And this 25 billion, you know, right now is being debated about like the tolling process and taxes.
It could go to, you know, the oil and gas industry. I doubt that that will happen. I don't know. And a lot of that will fall onto Canadians. And if we still have to deal with like current deficits and you know, whatever the government has already put into these projects, do we really have the capacity to build more and then endanger, you know, more people, environments and all that?
Like we know for sure that we're on this path to like climate collapse and emergency.
Mike: Yeah, thank you. Thank you, Pat, for the call. Yeah, we are on the hook for billions of dollars here in the Trans Mountain pipeline. Are you saying, Cody, that you know, in your, your call for expanded pipelines in Canada, are you saying taxpayers should pay for it or should be all private money?
Now you got, we got 30 seconds left each to make a final point. Go ahead, Cody.
Cody: Mike, the oil and gas industry in this country generates tens of billions of dollars every year and employs something like 900,000 Canadian families. So it is a massive wealth generator for the country.
And let's be honest, the Trans Mountain pipeline never would have taken so long and cost so much money, in large part protests from Greenpeace and people like Jillian delaying that project that was not in the national interest.
Mike: Jillian, you get the last word. You got like 20 seconds here. Go ahead.
Jillian: Yeah, well, oil workers actually overwhelmingly want to shift into sustainable jobs. I imagine the cognitive dissonance that comes with spending your days working in an industry that's so toxic that it's killing your children.
Cody: Nonsense.
Jillian: People love their children, right?
It's not nonsense. It's true. When people work in industries that destroy the future of their children.
Cody: I talk to them all the time. They're proud of what they do, Jillian.
Jillian: I thought you didn't want me to interrupt you, Cody, so I would expect you to.
Cody: I'm just following your example.
Mike: Okay. Thank you. Thank you, guys.
Thank you guys for a good. A good chat, good debate. I appreciate it a lot. And as usual, time flies by very quickly. Thank you for yours today.
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